Configure the Mouse as arrows

[letrollpoilu]

It would be nice to be able to use the mouse as the 4 arrows buttons (up, down, right, left).

I haven't found a way to do it so I suppose it's a feature request.

[tony]

@letrollpoilu You can map arrow keys to keyboard buttons.

[letrollpoilu]

I know that I just wanted to share an improvement.

[u8k]

I agree. As is, I don't use the mouse nub at all. It'd be more useful to me if I could re-assign any key I wanted to each of the four directions and the center push. Assigning it to the arrow keys sounds like a good idea, but just make it fully customizable, like every other button on the Twiddler.

[lancegatlin]

Would like to see this feature too. Though understand that the joystick is analog and not discrete. Maybe a future option for part swapping/twiddler versions:

1) Swap joystick for 5 button (up,down,left,right,push-center) stick replacement
2) Swap joystick for trackball or touchpad (I would love this)

I haven't been able to acclimate to the joystick at all and still don't use it even after a year of use.

-L

[tony]

Swap joystick for trackball or touchpad (I would love this)

Would love to find a suitable trackball.

[eekee]

BUMP! >:-)

I thought I replied to this when it was fresher. I really want this feature, which doesn't seem much of an extra to me at all. It's just an option to disable the mouse code and replace it with keys. The keys don't need to tie into the chording table to be basically useful, and arrow keys are very useful.

I have extra reason to want it, now. In the last few months, I bought a hand-held trackball to hold in my other hand. It's a great combination, the trackball providing analogue movement, scroll wheel, and easy to reach left button, while the Twiddler provides easy to reach middle and right buttons.

I've even started playing Minecraft with these two gadgets, it's almost great! Arrows from the joystick would really make it.

This is the hand-held trackball. There are others like it. It's got a return key. I should have got the one with an escape key instead of the laser pointer, but I didn't know it existed until after I bought it.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B016GELH64/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Though understand that the joystick is analog and not discrete.

I'm sure it's not analog. The mouse pointer doesn't start moving until the stick is almost as far as it can go, and it speeds up with time which it wouldn't do if you could speed it up by pushing the stick further or harder.

Would love to find a suitable trackball.

Me too, but the smaller the ball, the worse the trade-off between accuracy and range, in my experience. I think the ball in my hand-held trackball is about as small as is practical, but the socket holding it is too big to fit in the Twiddler's upper portion. Related: I don't play Minecraft in survival mode with it, just creative mode.

[lancegatlin]

Small trackpad sounds like the way to go then. I discovered these two about a month ago. So it's possible! Maybe not reasonable, but possible!

http://www.ergonomictouchpad.com/mini_touchpad.php

I'm using one of these right now with my minidox. Works ok! A few minor issues make me reach for mouse every now and again.

This is an amazing project which put a mini trackpad on a key:

[tony]

Mounting that trackpad is an issue for us. What about instead of a physical mouse/joystick we make the entire top surface touch sensitive via capacitive sensing? We are thinking about putting the buttons around the top or eliminating the buttons completely and just making hot spots on the touch surface.

[lancegatlin]

Sounds super interesting! I don't have any deep user experience with capacitive sensing. I've tried it on some VR controllers briefly and it worked fine for gaming apps. Though I can't confidently say that replacing a modifier button with a surface press will be better or worse user experience. Maybe other folks have thoughts. As far as replacing the stick with it, and as long as it is similar user experience to trackpad, then I'm all for it!

[eekee]

I've known several people to claim they can't get on with virtual buttons (and on-screen keyboards); they need the feedback of the physical buttons. Personally, I feel I'm not too bad with on-screen keyboards, but on reflection I see I'm much better with buttons. I could type faster and longer on my clamshell Zaurus than on my tablet, despite having a larger keyboard on the tablet.

I have very little experience with virtual buttons on trackpads as such, hence my reference to on-screen keyboards. The one device I have has a hinged trackpad which is no good to me for button pushes, the spring is too strong.

With the Twiddler, holding it in a fixed position with the strap hasn't worked out well for me, so it moves. Unless I can solve that issue, I'd need something to locate my thumb at the top. Another issue: Even with the physical buttons it has now, I find my thumb easily releases the modifier button before the key buttons. I have to be careful to release it later. I don't know how virtual buttons would work out in that regard. Virtual buttons could have one advantage: they could (hypothetically) be placed in a choice of positions. Num and Shift on the present Twiddler are a little bit of a stretch for me.

That's almost all I can say with my limited experience of trackpads. I think I found resistive trackpads more accurate than capacitative, but can't clearly remember any more. I don't like the way the pointer moves when I lift my finger off a capacitative trackpad or screen, it can be very hard to deal with, but I think it wouldn't be a problem with the Twiddler. Real pointer buttons mean I wouldn't need to lift off.

I was about to say trackpads are easier to clean than trackballs, but if you could find a trackball which would fit in the upper part of the Twiddler, I'm sure it would have a hole by which the ball could be popped out easily (unlike my one-handed trackball). That hole would be in an odd place for trackball design, it would be where the sensor normally goes; opposite the thumb. I don't know if there are optical sensors which can work on the side of the ball. Opto-mechanical pick-ups meet the side of the ball, but I hated cleaning those.

</ramble> That's all I've got.

[tony]

What about an optical mouse sensor just facing upwards? Instead of moving it around on a desk, you swipe your thumb across the sensor. Back in the good ol' days, Xybernaut had a controller like this.

I worry about a trackball for a few reasons:

1) Mechanical. Can fail.
2) Resolution in a small package. The Blackberry trackballs had very low resolution.
3) Dirt/grime. Inevitable and will gum up the mechanism.

[eekee]

I like that optical sensor idea, it sort of turns your thumb into the trackball. It would work better than a trackpad if you're wearing gloves or have dry skin or whatever. Trying it with an upside-down mouse, I guess it would need a transparent surface over the sensor and would need to have its brightness limited.

In trackballs, dirt is easy to deal with if you can pop the ball out, you can just wipe it out with a fingertip. Funnily enough, the only trackball I have where that's not easy to do is the handheld one I use with the Twiddler. It has a stiff locking ring.

Interesting about the Blackberry trackballs. They're much smaller than the hand-held I linked above. I don't think it's necessary to go anywhere near that small for the Twiddler. A ball the size of my hand-held will fit the Twiddler if the sensor can be repositioned.

Mechanics I can't comment on because I haven't got long-term experience with trackballs, but there's a curious story about the one I did have in the past, for the Atari ST. It had a translucent ball and my bedroom had a huge window facing the setting sun. Inevitably, sunlight eventually got into it, was lensed by the ball, and the black plastic chassis inside warped badly. I've never seen another trackball with a translucent ball!

[tony]

sunlight eventually got into it, was lensed by the ball

Doh! Engineers should have seen that coming...

[till]

The discussion took off in a totally different direction. Actually the advantage(!) of having a joystick is that you can easily map it to arrow keys. So I would really appreciate this feature particularly with ability to toggle back and forth (mouse lock)

On firetv Mouse Toggle works just like this to easily use all kinds of non-touch android apps. I guess this could be done in software but it seems rather complicated because the HID device registers as Mouse not as a Joystick. IMHO this would be a second thing to configure: optionally register as a joystick.

Also I think in terms of accessibility this is a killer feature to be able to use the joystick e.g. via arrow keys events on websites, apps or when being in an editor/word processor.

[WolfgangW]

Are there any news on this topic?

I am just starting to get used to the Twiddler 3, but am having a hard time using the stick. Honestly I am more than disappointed it is just a "joystick" instead of a trackpoint (which I am used to and love on my regular keyboards), so at least being able to use it as cursor keys would make it a little bit useful in my eyes.

[tony]

@WolfgangW The history behind the joystick comes from the use of the Twiddler in environments where the user is mobile and moving. Fine motor control in these situations is very hard. We had prototyped with a super smooth mouse "stick" from Austria Microsystems. When the user was stationary, the AM stick worked very well. Once the user started moving, the resolution of the stick became more of a hindrance than a help. This is where the 8 way joystick excelled. Up, Down, Left, Right and the bisectors gave it enough control to accurately move a pointer around the screen and click on targets.

In a stationary/seated environment, a mouse would work better.

[DosUserX]

im still really interested in this feature. i plan to use my good trackball for mousing, making all those inputs totally useless because the device is locked them into mouse inputs. people can suggest workarounds, but i dont want to workaround this issue, i want be able to change the binding of the mouse inputs just like i can change every other input on the device. seems pretty reasonable considering they implied this 200 dollar device was completely remappable.

its not completely remappable, only the chord buttons are remappable. in fact, the mouse stick and top keys are shown directly next the part that says that its remappable. the forcing the joystick to only handle mouse stuff is not at all useful to most types of text input and arrow keys and scroll wheel inputs seems like an obvious and necessary feature not included in the configuration app.

i dont know if tekgear monitor this forum, but please include this potentially useful feature.

[tony]

The current config format cannot support this function. We'll take it under advisement as we develop the firmware and config formats for future versions.

[sam1am]

Personally I love the touchpad top for your thumb idea. That sounds rad. You could also still keep your four buttons up there to the sides or something as well.

Is there really a Twiddler 4 in the works?